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May 12, 2008, 03:51:01 PM

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20648 Posts in 2492 Topics by 2632 Members Latest Member: - monokean Most online today: 28 - most online ever: 81 (March 28, 2008, 08:35:02 PM)
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Author Topic: Tianjin's Most Walkable Areas?  (Read 2090 times)
bendan
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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2008, 08:47:16 PM »

The roads (while a little bit smaller) are still the rather wide roads that are everywhere in Tianjin. In my opinion, a very important factor in making a place more foot-trafficked is having small roads that are not as heavily trafficked by vehicles, so that it feels more comfortable for people on foot. Those kinds of roads are also more crossable, so there's easy cross-traffic back and forth. - good for business, good for pedestrians. ...

I think that's what the planners here don't get. The city is being planned with a fairly small number of very wide roads, with huge gated communities off them. The big roads (usually with disproportionately narrow sidewalks) are very uncomfortable for pedestrians and it feels hard to get around on foot.

 I much prefer areas like the one around Chifeng Dao, which I think Sunny mentioned, but there are no new developments like that.

It's not the end of the world, but it's a wasted opportunity when so much redevelopment is going on. It's interesting to see much lower rise, and/or accessible development going on in parts of Beijing.

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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2008, 09:57:27 PM »

The area right off of the park has a pretty wide road, but the further east you go, they get a bit narrower. I'm mostly talking about the area between there and the Xinan Jiao subway stop. The roads are still wider than what you'll see by Chifeng Dao, but the blocks are much smaller than many other "new" areas of the city.

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I think that's what the planners here don't get. The city is being planned with a fairly small number of very wide roads, with huge gated communities off them. The big roads (usually with disproportionately narrow sidewalks) are very uncomfortable for pedestrians and it feels hard to get around on foot.

I'd like to add that those big wide roads can be very inefficient, as well. There seems to be this idea going around in Tianjin, and perhaps even more so in Beijing, that in order to move traffic you need big, wide, arterial roads, and little else. You do need some of them, of course, but when the whole system is based on them it becomes easier to get bogged down. If a major artery gets blocked, (and that does seem to happen on more than just a passing occasion), it backs up the whole system because you have nowhere else to route people. If you sacrificed some of those big, wide boulevards for more of an urban street-grid, you'd be able to keep traffic flowing a bit more smoothly during those crunch times when someone's car gets rear-ended and they decide they need to stop in the middle of the street to argue about it for half an hour.
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bendan
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« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2008, 10:26:26 PM »

I also find it amazing that so much land is allocated to unecessarily wide roads in places where there will never be much traffic. People end up parking nose-to-the-kerb because it's wider than it needs to be.
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2008, 04:59:20 PM »

 
I also find it amazing that so much land is allocated to unecessarily wide roads in places where there will never be much traffic. People end up parking nose-to-the-kerb because it's wider than it needs to be.
They said that in Shanghai too - but now we have 24hour traffic jams. Even in Pudong withthe widest roads I have friends who have had to move closer to their work because their commute has gotten longer and longer over the past 5 years. We get 8,000 new cars a month here as so many middle class Chinese want to own one and now can.
The same thing WILL happen in Tianjin and TEDA and any planning solution has to take that into account. Its a tricky one as the only precedents are in China itself, Beijing, Shenzhen and Shanghai and clearly those places got it wrong. As I mentioned before there is definitely a phd, a book and possibly a Nobel Prize for the person who can solve it and, more importantly, persuade China's second and third tier cities to adopt it rather than just listening to whichever developer walks in the door with the fattest cheque.
Sorry, rant finished. I didn't get my coffee this morning  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2008, 07:17:09 PM »

dude, you should skip coffee more often! interesting stuff. yeah, sounds like a tough situation. maybe we should just ban cars altogether in the city, or develop underground highway systems... Tongue
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2008, 08:23:06 PM »

I have now reheated and drunk the few sips of yesterday's coffee that was in my vacuum mug that I left in the office yesterday. Its the only one I have with a snap-shut lid so the only one I can take to work on my bike Undecided
Sadly, banning cars doesn't work either. It's been proven that the best walkable streets are those that attract business and they tend to be in the city center. banning cars actually discourages people to go there. Look at Las Ramblas in Madrisd or the Champs Elysees in Paris - both extremely walkable streets because they are in mixed use areas with car access. In fact Champs Elysees is a major auto route AND one of the best walkable streets in the world because of its layout and the range of businesses it can attract. Putting cars underneath is being tried in Boston (its called The Big Dig) and here in Shanghai they are about to put a car tunnel under The Bund. Both are too soon to say if they work. China's problems in this area are pretty unique because of its size, population and the pace of development. Nobody has really come up with a solution yet that can be accepted and acted on by the city officials who make the final decisions.
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« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2008, 06:40:48 AM »

yeah, i remember that fact about completely banning cars being not so good now that you mention it...   but what about putting a limit on the number of cars permited in the city at one time, or at least a limit on vehicle numbers in certain areas or certain streets? I wonder if that would be feasable and beneficial... ? Also, while we're on the subject of limits, lately I've been thinking that with all this overpopulation stuff, maybe governments should just put a limit on the number of people that are permited to actually reside in a certain area , and the number of businesses allowed in business districts - i mean, if we just base our limits on how high we can build our buildings, then the number of people that can live and work and drive around in any given space becomes outrageous, and maybe that works fine when people don't have cars, but when we're dealing with cars, it does become rather out of hand.. so... i'm kind of of the opinion that we should set limits on population per square kilometer.
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« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2008, 06:46:17 AM »

Actually, I believe Tianjin does have a limit on the number of people who they want to allow to live in the municipality. I think it was something like 13 million by a certain year, and they wanted to cap it at around there, because they didn't want to use up too much farmland. Anyone else read this?
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« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2008, 05:50:31 PM »

Actually, I believe Tianjin does have a limit on the number of people who they want to allow to live in the municipality. I think it was something like 13 million by a certain year, and they wanted to cap it at around there, because they didn't want to use up too much farmland. Anyone else read this?
Yes, we think that sounds about right for the whole Tianjin municipality including TEDA etc.
Regarding the cars, Beijing attempted a voluntary no-car day last year which was declared a success by the government and a joke by the BBC. Shanghai and Beijing are both looking at banning private cars with certain plates (regional, odd or even numbers etc) from roads at variuos times with very limited success. I think the problem is that the US and Europe are held as the model for a developed nation and in those countries everyone has a car (OK, almost everyone, for the pedantics). The majority of China's growing urban population see car ownership as their right as citizens of a developing nation but it is simply going to be impossible to fit all those cars onto the roads.
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« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2008, 08:02:08 PM »

right... so... some kind of steeper limits should be set.... and as far as the limit on the whole municipality thing, I think that's a little bit unspecific, because, obviously, the municipality is a large area, and there can be very high concentrations in some areas and low concentrations of people in others... I do honestly think it might be a wise idea to set specific limits for each block, or smaller areas. Either that or set limits on the number and height of residential buildings per area... something that would keep any particular area from becoming over-crowded.
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2008, 05:11:13 PM »

Yes, there are limits on specific areas too. I thinkit is only three million for TEDA. You know you've been in China too long when you find yourself saying "only three million". Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2008, 03:44:07 AM »

I think the problem is that the US and Europe are held as the model for a developed nation and in those countries everyone has a car (OK, almost everyone, for the pedantics). The majority of China's growing urban population see car ownership as their right as citizens of a developing nation but it is simply going to be impossible to fit all those cars onto the roads.

South Korea and Japan have very high car ownership levels alongside very high population densities (higher than China; similar to the Hebei/BJ/TJ area). The difference is vastly better law enforcement, much more intelligent traffic management and cities that usually evolve rather than attempt huge, rapid "facelifts". Thye certainly have traffic problems, but Tianjin has those problems with less than 10% car ownership.

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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2008, 02:28:04 AM »

I was doing some research today (we were talking about monaco the other day on the radio show and i discovered that it is technically the most densely populated country in the world) and found some interesting information:

The population density of Monaco (information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaco ) (as it seems to me) is actually not that much different than that of Tianjin (information here: http://www.demographia.com/db-tianjin-ward.htm ) - Tianjin's more densely populated districts reaching 45,000 per sq kilometer, Monaco reaching 33,000  ... average city density around 22,000, Monaco - 16,000 per sq. kilometer.  .. so, i think not such a great difference.

I really don't know, but I wonder if Monaco has the same problem with cars and lack of walkable streets that Tianjin has.. anyone know?
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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2008, 05:44:39 PM »

cities that usually evolve rather than attempt huge, rapid "facelifts".

Absolutely. You'd think that planning a city from a blank slate would be easy. In fact there are so many factors that make up a living, human community that evolve differently in any one location over time it is impossible to predict and plan for them all. Without organic growth (a sort of "natural selection") making some of the choices for you, mistakes are bound to be made.
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